It’s the time of year for saving money!
Yesterday, during my perusal of a used audio site that doesn’t need another mention, I spied someone selling a CAL ICON II CD player for $599. And my only thought was. “Why would anyone buy this when you have so many better new options?” My answer? Nostalgia, coupled with willful ignorance…
Sometimes, buying used or discontinued products is a great way to save money on high performance audio. But in every case the components will be analog electronics, loudspeakers, or even cabling. But when it comes to digital devices, I draw the line. Recently, I’ve reviewed not one, but two digital devices that serve as DAC/preamplifiers that were both priced under $300 whose performance is on a level that I believe is better than you will find from any ten-year or older DAC regardless of price, then or now… Those two DA/Pres were the Project S2 and the IFI xDSD.
And while there are a few audiophiles and manufacturers who believe that older, “simpler” DAC chips, with no over-sampling sound “more analog-like” than current generation DACS, I have not found this to be true, especially if you look at some of the latest chip, FPGA, and ladder DAC designs.
Some audio pundits claim that the current generation of DACs are so good that the primary arbiter of ultimate sonic quality is now their analog rather than their digital circuitry. And while there are some 10 and 20 year-old DACs with excellent analog circuits behind their digital ones, it’s hard to take any brick-wall filtered DAC and make it sound acceptable, even with the best analog circuits to try to tame its issues.
And then there’s high resolution capabilities. Regardless of your position on high resolution files, the ability to process higher resolution files is usually accompanied by the ability to upsample 44.1 files. With the latest chips (and FPGA DACS) you have the option of more than one digital filter option, which lets a listener tailor the sound more closely to their personal tastes. 10 and 20 year-old DACs have one filter, and in many cases it’s a more primitive brick wall type.
I seriously doubt that the laser used in a 20-year old CD player was spec’d to last for 20 years of regular use. I have no doubt that there might be a few old players out there that are still going with their original laser assembly intact, but they would be the equivalent of Thomas Pynchon’s fabled 100-year-old lightbulb…exceedingly rare, but not impossible…
And then there is the process of going from the CD’s physical nubs to digital bits is not without timing and data loss issues that do not improve with a unit’s age. Many reviewers discovered when we first began ripping CDs into digital files, that the digital files sometimes sounded better than the original discs! Fewer timing errors and less error correction needed for the files allowed DAC sections to perform more optimally. And then we have streaming. Most 20-year old CD players and DACs have no way to bring in or even process high-fidelity streaming music…
Today, I can buy a simple portable computer, disc burner, and a basic DAC for about $700US if I looked around a bit that will do everything better than any 20-year old CD player – with far greater flexibility, utility, and sound quality, regardless of the make or model.
While I would never want to dissuade anyone from buying an old CD player from ARC or Goodwill for $25 or less just to see A. if it still worked, and B. how does it sound compared to contemporary gear. When it comes to spending anything over $500 for a DAC or CD player that is more than ten years old strikes me as an exercise in nostalgia, not high-performance audio.
I’m sure that someone reading this has what they consider a “golden nail” of a vintage CD player that is still sonically competitive with current generation digital products. I’m also equally sure that they haven’t bothered to hear what the current generation of DACs (and streaming devices) can do both sonically and in terms of ergonomics. But nostalgia can be a strong influence on even an audiophile’s thought processes, but when it comes to digital, in my humble opinion, it’s the wrong road less travelled…
Absolutely agree, that its a bad idea to buy an old CD player. Philips unit seen in picture was bad from day one, mainly because of analogue part. Only very few electronics sound better still today, like NAD 3020, which beats every plastic hifi system of the 20XX years to the ground in sonic terms.
Two words Sony PlayStation. Without firmware upgrades of course.
Puhleeze. Crap sound. Useful for ripping SACDs…but good luck finding one…
While the PS3 was popular for ripping SACDs, I do recall the original PlayStation 1 being a highly esteemed solution among some as a stand-alone CD player. Art Dudley did a write-up in Stereophile about it. Wait, here it is. A quote:
Still, in 2021, I think I’m happier with Roon and a modern DAC…even modest ones like the S.M.S.L. Sanskrit 10th V2 and Khadas Tone1 or Tone2 Pro. 🙂
Steve, although I love vintage gear, I think you are right. I would also say that most AV receivers built prior to 2010 are ready for the scrap pile. It would be interesting to know how many tens of thousands (probably millions) of antiquated AV components are today gathering dust in people’s basements.
Receivers are tough because of HDMI and its ever changing formats.
I just edited Dennis Burger’s soon-to-post guide on buying AV receivers and BOY does that cover a lot of ground for those who don’t study the category.
You need to be deaf or stupid to buy an old CD player other than for nostalgia (as Steve says) or collection sake.
Digital audio is the fasted moving, most improving category out there. And it can be cheap to get good stuff.
And if we really want to get into it – do you even need a silver disc at this point? A nice DAC and a NAS drive and-or a Tidal subscription and you are set.
“Deaf or stupid,” nice going Jerry. Yes, digital audio is the “fasted moving …” category out there.
I picked up a Sony DVP S9000ES disc player. SACD sound quality is as good or better than some new higher end disc players. It cost $100. Neither deaf nor stupid.
SACD is pretty much a dead format with flaws from the start but to save even more money – you could have your SACDs ripped to a NAS drive (they go for like $50 now at Amazon or Best Buy depending on the size of HD you need) and BOOM you are good to go. Disc-less and getting whatever SACD has to offer today as most of them weren’t DSD native recordings thus not able to really embrace what SACD did well.
I’ve got an old HK FL8300 that I’ve been leaning on for 20 years. To say I’m attached to that old piece of wonky junk is an understatement! LMAO!
It makes sense to use an old CD player with SPDIF out as a transport with a modern DAC
Why not rip the CDs to a NAS drive and use an iPad and Roon to have cover-flow art and stash the CDs in your closet?
It would take the rest of my life to burn my silvers… life’s too short. (So is space, but that’s another story.)
My old Denon then NAD CD players lasted ten years of very hard use before their lasers failed. Newer players with cheap Chinese drives have lasted a couple of years each. If I were buying a CD player today I would do plenty of research on drive quality and after sales support before buying. By the way I luvved the sound of my NAD player but the Panasonic DVD-A110 (that no longer plays DVDs and replaced the NAD) sounds great because of its audiophile grade DVDA DACs! Many of the early DVD players had separate lasers for DVD and CD.
I have a November 1985 built Sony CDP-7F that sounds surprisingly good and plays both burned silver and memorex black CDs. So much for the laser croaking in less than 30 years . . .
It’s plugged into an H/K 330c receiver and Polk bookshelf speakers as I write this (but I’m playing vinyl not cd this evening)
Just ordered a Topping DAC from Massdrop for $200 that features the latest Sabre Chips
“You need to be deaf or stupid to buy an old CD player”
Validity aside, that comment is condescending at best. It betrays your roots as an audio salesman.
I own the Onkyo C-7030 cd player.The Onkyo cd player is a little over $125 dollars, and sounds pretty good by itself. I also own a couple of vintage technics players, that i got from goodwill, for next to nothing. They are built like tanks, and sound good on their own also. I’m always looking for a better sounding cd player on the cheap. I am now getting the Schitt audio Modi multibit dac to bypass the optical on my Onkyo. I’m hoping to get a warmer, more analog sound.
I have the same Onkyo cd player and I have been thinking about getting the Schitt as well!
I respectfully strongly disagree i was looking to get in to the streaming but to my ears nothing came close to my 20 years old musical fidelity nu vista 3D CD player my opinion is streaming music it’s too digital streaming for me it’s not hi fidelity it’s only convenience?or for people don’t have music on CD or vinyl?
I’m listening my music on CD vinyl I have all the music I like plus the most important streaming music it’s not even close to CD or vinyl to me streaming is totally waste of time? It’s very sad my old albums or cds sound better from tidal?
I googled whether it really makes a difference what CD player you have, because I was pretty sure that the CD digital format and specs are made so they don’t really change the output much to an amplifier. Didn’t get much knowledge here. As for old CD players, I have a few like a Yamaha and a Marantz that play decently but there is also the convenience factor with them: easy to skip tracks or even to choose a track from the front of the CD player. I even have a Lasonic on one of my setups which has the very nice quality of turning on and starting the first track when I turn on the Yamaha amp that it is plugged to – without my having to deal with the CD player’s remote or separate controls. You can get these for about 30 to 60 bucks on craigslist and ebay. Getting a computer set up and DAC and NAS – what is the time element of studying that and setting all that up? what does it cost and how is it wired? and how does that wire to your amplifier without loosing something in the process? What is the convenience factor? Really, that’s all a question, not an accusation. At the end of that, do you have to boot up the computer every time you want to play a disc (instead of just turning your amp on with the cd player plugged to the switched outlet on the amp)? How much time does that take while you are fiddling to play a CD and your girlfriend is thinking you are nuts? And ripping CD’s to digital files…what is the time investment there (I remember friends in high school who ran a service ripping their albums to an 8-track recorder who wasted whole afternoons trying to make a tape and ever since I’ve been focused on the time-value of such suggestions – i.e., you’ll never really have the time to do that)? And what is the marginal improvement? And you ultimately are faced with the very weak link and individual preference in speakers which are converting an analogue signal to a sort of mechanical analogue air pressure conversion (not to mention the ambient noise of traffic or the refrigerator) – isn’t that going to affect your experience about 1000 times as much as the minute differences (if any) in conversion of the digital signals from a CD? I.e., wouldn’t it be better to buy a cheap CD player and upgrade your speakers instead? These days are actually a great time to pick up CD’s and CD players cheap. So, really, is there any reason to discourage someone from doing that?
I don’t see anything wrong with picking up a cheap CD player, just for fun. I don’t know about you, but $599 is not “cheap” for me. I think that was Steven’s point.
Hello Steven
This regards your March 2019 article on older cd players. I have a multi disc 20 bit Pioneer which I continue to get repaired.
I’ve been outside audiophile forums for years when conventional wisdom was that DAC conversion capacity was the gold standard since the conversion rate more closely approximated analog the higher the bit rate – that is, comparing a 16 bit to 20 for example, one would be comparing a 16 factorial to a !20.
Has the industry surpassed those perform milestones now as you suggest and if so, are there multi- disc players you would recommend?
I realize this is an old thread and have no idea if my post will be seen, let alone get a response but I wondered if something like the Project S2 would have better DACs inside than those in my aging Anthem Statement D2V? The Anthem contains AKM AK5394A ADCs and AKM AK4395 24-Bit/192kHz Delta-Sigma DACs with the Analogue Devices AD1896 ASRC (Asynchronous Sample Rate Converter. They are now 7 years old (and likely older than that) but are DACs that were premium when released. Would a $400 DAC that is 5-7 years newer, result in a noticeable upgrade in sound?
I would point you toward the SMSL SU-9, Gustard X-16, and Topping D-90S as DACS using the latest chips and generating the best S/N figures…Both the GUstard and the SMSL are priced close to the S2, but with newer DAC chip.
Thank you for the quick response, Steven. I will look into your recommendations – Cheers!
Oh yeah, like the opamps on the output stage don’t matter. First link the the analog signal chain, wanker.
I have two ’90’s Onkyo’s 6 discs on my only system… they aren’t broken, so I’m not fixing them!!! 😉